Editing Project:Village pump (proposals) (section)

== Bots fixing double redirects should tag them with rcat ==

'''Original proposal:''' Suppose a [[WP:double redirect|double redirect]] ''A'' → ''B'' → ''C'' is straightened to ''A'' → ''C''. If ''B'' is retargeted or expanded to an article later, ''A'' should be updated accordingly. We already have a mechanism for that, the template {{tl|R avoided double redirect}}. However, the double-redirect-fixing bots currently [[Special:Diff/1101213879|fail to tag]] the straightened redirect (''A'') with the template. I thus propose to make it mandatory for the bots to apply the tag when straightening a double redirect. It has already been discussed at {{slink|Wikipedia talk:Double redirects|The bots should operate with a delay}}. See also the '''[[#Bots 2R rcat mod|modification of the proposal]]''' below. <span style="font-family:Segoe Script">[[User:Petr Matas|Petr Matas]]</span> 05:40, 1 August 2022 (UTC). Updated: 23:46, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
:It's really a bad task for a bot, and {{tl|R avoided double redirect}} is rather pointless tagging in most cases. Many redirects are created as double redirects with the understand that a both will cleanup after them. What's gained by tagging those with {{tl|R avoided double redirect}}? &#32;<span style="font-variant:small-caps; whitespace:nowrap;">[[User:Headbomb|Headbomb]] {[[User talk:Headbomb|t]] · [[Special:Contributions/Headbomb|c]] · [[WP:PHYS|p]] · [[WP:WBOOKS|b]]}</span> 07:32, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
:'''Support'''. I completely disagree with Headbomb - {{temp|R avoided double redirect}} is for situations where the avoided double redirect could potentially become an article later or where that redirect is retargetted - when the avoided redirect changes the dependent redirect can be automatically updated to best serve readers. For example if "Foo (song)" is created as a redirect to "Foo (album)" that is itself a redirect to "Foo (band)" then tagging the first redirect as a {{temp|R avoided double redirect}} will allow it to be automatically retargetted to "Foo (album)" when someone writes that article; it can also be retargetted automatically if "Foo (album)" is retargetted to the new article "Foo discography" without the author of the article needing to know the redirect exists - this is even more useful when the redirect is from a less obvious title than in this example. I can see lots of advantages of doing this by a bot and no downsides. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 10:45, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
::Thryduulf, I see the downsides. Let's say "Death of Foo" is a redirect to "Shooting of Foo" which is then moved to "Assassination of Foo", causing a double redirect at the first one, we would not want the bot to tag "Death of Foo" with {{tl|R avoided double redirect}}, because the avoided double redirect doesn't really have the potential to become a standalone article without duplicating an existing article, and it would just bloat up the category with unwanted pages. <span class="nowrap">&#8212;'''[[User:CX Zoom|CX Zoom]]'''[he/him]</span> <sup class="nowrap">([[User talk:CX Zoom|let's talk]] • {[[Special:Contributions/CX Zoom|C]]•[[User:CX Zoom/X|X]]})</sup> 11:43, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
:It's never "mandatory" for a human editor to put that template on a page, so it shouldn't be for their bot-aided edit either.  Fixing the double redirect alone is still better for readers, so if it comes down to fixing it or skipping it over this new proposed rule - I'm for the former. — [[User:Xaosflux|<span style="color:#FF9933; font-weight:bold; font-family:monotype;">xaosflux</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Xaosflux|<span style="color:#009933;">Talk</span>]]</sup> 12:52, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
:Here's a concrete example. There is the journal [[Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America]]. Because that is a mouthful, I create [[PNAS]] → [[Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America]], it's most common abbreviation. Now, because this isn't the only way to refer to PNAS, and because I am lazy, I also create
:[[P.N.A.S.]] → [[PNAS]] 
:[[PNAS USA]] → [[PNAS]]
:[[Proc Natl Acad Sci]] → [[PNAS]]
:[[Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci.]] → [[PNAS]]
:[[Proc Natl Acad Sci USA]] → [[PNAS]]
:[[Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. U.S.A.]] → [[PNAS]]
:[[Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences]] → [[PNAS]]
:And [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:WhatLinksHere/Proceedings_of_the_National_Academy_of_Sciences_of_the_United_States_of_America&hidetrans=1&hidelinks=1&limit=500 a bunch of others]
:Should those be tagged with {{temp|R avoided double redirect}} once the bot cleans up after me? The answer here is clearly ''no''. These are not distinct topics, these are the same topics. &#32;<span style="font-variant:small-caps; whitespace:nowrap;">[[User:Headbomb|Headbomb]] {[[User talk:Headbomb|t]] · [[Special:Contributions/Headbomb|c]] · [[WP:PHYS|p]] · [[WP:WBOOKS|b]]}</span> 13:30, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
::You can afford the laziness, because you know that currently it leaves no trace in the page structure, only in the history. But imagine that one day [[PNAS]] becomes a disambiguation page, even though it is not tagged as a redirect with possibilities at present. Then all redirects that pointed to it before straightening should be retargeted back to [[PNAS]]. If their intended target is [[Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America]], it should have been specified right away instead of relying on straightening by bots. In other words, current toleration of a bad practice is not a good argument for insisting on its toleration forever. A good news is that possible adoption of the proposal will have no effect on such redirects straightened in the past. <span style="font-family:Segoe Script">[[User:Petr Matas|Petr Matas]]</span> 23:26, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
:::Let's say they'd have all been pointed to [[Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America]] before [[PNAS]] got turned into a dab? What would be different? Exactly nothing, since no redirect is pointing to [[PNAS]]. &#32;<span style="font-variant:small-caps; whitespace:nowrap;">[[User:Headbomb|Headbomb]] {[[User talk:Headbomb|t]] · [[Special:Contributions/Headbomb|c]] · [[WP:PHYS|p]] · [[WP:WBOOKS|b]]}</span> 23:30, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
::::If they have been straightened ''and tagged'', then after turning [[PNAS]] into a dab they will appear in [[:Category:Avoided double redirects to be updated]]. <span style="font-family:Segoe Script">[[User:Petr Matas|Petr Matas]]</span> 23:40, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
:::::Which they shouldn't, since they don't need any updating. &#32;<span style="font-variant:small-caps; whitespace:nowrap;">[[User:Headbomb|Headbomb]] {[[User talk:Headbomb|t]] · [[Special:Contributions/Headbomb|c]] · [[WP:PHYS|p]] · [[WP:WBOOKS|b]]}</span> 00:38, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
::::::That is right, it is just a relict of one's laziness. <span style="font-family:Segoe Script">[[User:Petr Matas|Petr Matas]]</span> 04:28, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
:'''Oppose''' per [[WP:CONTEXTBOT]]. The original premise here is not correct, a redirect chain ''A'' → ''B'' → ''C'' does not mean that ''B'' is the intended target for ''A'' or that the process of retargeting ''A'' results in an avoided double redirect. ''B'' could be a misspelling, an alternate capitalisation, an alternate disambiguation, a synonym etc. {{tl|R avoided double redirect}} is for the situation "If ''B'' was an article ''A'' should point to it, but since ''B'' is a redirect ''A'' points to ''C'' instead". Any bot applying these tags would need to be making editorial judgements about what the intention of person who created redirect A was, and whether ''B'' has the potential to be a separate subject from ''C'', which is not an appropriate task for a bot. [[Special:Contributions/163.1.15.238|163.1.15.238]] ([[User talk:163.1.15.238|talk]]) 13:08, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
:'''No comment''' on original proposal (Headbomb's comments give me pause). However, if I create Article X and Redirect A to it; then if Article X becomes Redirect x, we should see Redirect A should get tagged by a bot automatically as {{tl|R avoided double redirect}} imo. &#8211;<span style="font-family:CG Times, times">[[User:MJL|<span style="color:black">MJL</span>]]&thinsp;[[User talk:MJL|‐'''Talk'''‐]]<sup>[[User:MJL/P|☖]]</sup></span> 21:49, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
::Let's say you create "Canadian Hockey in the 1920s". You then create a "1920s in Canadian Hockey" redirect as a likely alternative title, and "Canadian Hockey in the 1920's" and "1920's in Canadian Hockey" redirects as likely typos.
::A move request occurs, and the page is moved to "History of Canadian Hockey (1920s)". What's to be gained by tagging
::"1920s in Canadian Hockey"
::"Canadian Hockey in the 1920's"
::"1920's in Canadian Hockey"
::as {{tl|R avoided double redirect}}? &#32;<span style="font-variant:small-caps; whitespace:nowrap;">[[User:Headbomb|Headbomb]] {[[User talk:Headbomb|t]] · [[Special:Contributions/Headbomb|c]] · [[WP:PHYS|p]] · [[WP:WBOOKS|b]]}</span> 00:43, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
:::That's not exactly the scenario I described (though I get why you are mentioning it). If Redirect x is tagged {{tl|R from move}} then I don't think pages targeting it should be tagged {{tl|R avoided double redirect}}. &#8211;<span style="font-family:CG Times, times">[[User:MJL|<span style="color:black">MJL</span>]]&thinsp;[[User talk:MJL|‐'''Talk'''‐]]<sup>[[User:MJL/P|☖]]</sup></span> 13:18, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

{{anchor|Bots 2R rcat mod}}'''Modification of the proposal:''' The strongest opposition seems to come from the observation that a bot-straightened redirect is not the same as a redirect tagged manually with {{tl|R avoided double redirect}}. Therefore I propose that the bots add a different tag when straightening a double redirect, for example {{tlp|Bot-straightened redirect|''original target''}}. Thus the original target of the redirect is not lost, changes in the original target can be tracked, and the category of manually-tagged redirects will not become cluttered. <span style="font-family:Segoe Script">[[User:Petr Matas|Petr Matas]]</span> 23:26, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
:I'm against the original proposal, but this one seems reasonable – it would help in tracking what had happened in cases like this (and potentially allow for bot-straightening of double redirects to be automatically undone if the "middle" redirect got edited into an article). --[[User:ais523|ais523]] 11:51, 6 August 2022 (UTC)
::This makes sense to me. <span class="nowrap">&#8212;'''[[User:CX Zoom|CX Zoom]]'''[he/him]</span> <sup class="nowrap">([[User talk:CX Zoom|let's talk]] • {[[Special:Contributions/CX Zoom|C]]•[[User:CX Zoom/X|X]]})</sup> 16:09, 7 August 2022 (UTC)