Editing Project:Village pump (proposals) (section)

===Communication issue===
{{re|Volker E. (WMF)|AHollender (WMF)|Jon (WMF)}} Completely separate from the issue of whether or not the new design is an improvement (which I still need to investigate more before forming an opinion), I think we need to take a bit of space here to diagnose what went wrong with communication between the WMF and the community. This is a major design change (far more impactful than [[Wikipedia:Village_pump_(proposals)/Archive_188#RFC:_New_PDF_icon|the PDF icon change]] for which there was a CENT-listed RfC) that should have been presented to the community rather than rolled out unilaterally. Why didn't that happen? <span style="color:#AAA"><small>&#123;{u&#124;</small><span style="border-radius:9em;padding:0 5px;background:#088">[[User:Sdkb|<span style="color:#FFF">'''Sdkb'''</span>]]</span><small>}&#125;</small></span> <sup>[[User talk:Sdkb|'''talk''']]</sup> 14:37, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

:Because the PDF change took 3 months ? —[[User:TheDJ|Th<span style="color: green">e</span>DJ]] ([[User talk:TheDJ|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/TheDJ|contribs]]) 14:43, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
:The WMF had nothing to do with the pdf change; the icon is a local thing used by [[MediaWiki:Common.css]] circa row 92. In addition, per TheDJ above, there are several changes each week and I don't think enwiki needs consulted about every single one. Devs being bold and others reverting if necessary (as someone has) works just fine. —[[User:Danre98|<span style="color:DarkGreen">Danre98</span>]]<sup>([[User_talk:Danre98|<span style="color:Teal">talk</span>]]^[[Special:Contributions/Danre98|<span style="color:purple">contribs</span>]])</sup> 16:48, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
::I really have to question it as a "major design change". No, New Vector is obviously such, but the external link tag is not. The pdf change took forever because so many proposed changes were un-understandable. [[User:Nosebagbear|Nosebagbear]] ([[User talk:Nosebagbear|talk]]) 21:10, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
:::The external links icon is not a "major design change" but it is extremely visible. Many of the key Wikipedians are some of the most thoughtful, helpful, and capable people on the planet. Maybe it's just me but I think common sense suggests to consult them before making any highly visible global change. [[User:Jason Quinn|Jason Quinn]] ([[User talk:Jason Quinn|talk]]) 02:30, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
::::It makes no economic sense however. —[[User:TheDJ|Th<span style="color: green">e</span>DJ]] ([[User talk:TheDJ|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/TheDJ|contribs]]) 08:59, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
::::And yet, I didn't notice it until I saw this discussion. - [[User talk:Donald Albury|Donald Albury]] 16:19, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
::::I would agree with {{u|Jason Quinn|Jason}} here. I also don't like setting the standard that we make our source code easier to change than [[MediaWiki:Common.css]]. There should be ''some'' sort of community review before highly visible changes go live.<br />FWIW, I say this as ''the'' person who got the PDF icon change rolling (despite not getting my preferred result). {{re|Nosebagbear}} From that perspective, I can say the pdf change took forever simply because the community didn't just want an ''improved'' icon (which my suggestion in comparison to the lousy gif) but a ''better'' icon (the one they ended up going with without the Adobe logo on it -_-). &#8211;<span style="font-family:CG Times, times">[[User:MJL|<span style="color:black">MJL</span>]]&thinsp;[[User talk:MJL|‐'''Talk'''‐]]<sup>[[User:MJL/P|☖]]</sup></span> 18:41, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
:::::"There should be some sort of community review before highly visible changes go live." There is, you can register on gerrit.wikimedia.org and review to your hearts content. You can read all the many dozens of MediaWiki.org pages that summarise some of the changes and you can participate in any Phabricator ticket that has the "design" tag (currently about 1100 open tickets all mostly about 'visible' things). —[[User:TheDJ|Th<span style="color: green">e</span>DJ]] ([[User talk:TheDJ|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/TheDJ|contribs]]) 09:06, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
::::::Please review [[mw:Bug management/Phabricator etiquette]] before posting comments on Phab tickets (it's not difficult, but it's not a Wikipedia talk page).  Also, voting-type behaviors are banned; this is not the place to discuss who supports/opposes something (although links to external discussions are usually welcome). [[User:Whatamidoing (WMF)|Whatamidoing (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Whatamidoing (WMF)|talk]]) 20:08, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
:::::::@[[User:Whatamidoing (WMF)|Whatamidoing (WMF)]]: Thank you for clearing that up for folks. {{(:}} &#8211;<span style="font-family:CG Times, times">[[User:MJL|<span style="color:black">MJL</span>]]&thinsp;[[User talk:MJL|‐'''Talk'''‐]]<sup>[[User:MJL/P|☖]]</sup></span> 21:38, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
:Not every change needs an RfC, but every change that alters how we view or interact with the website should be presented to the community; if there are reasonable objections, we can then open a broader discussion and if necessary an RfC. [[User:BilledMammal|BilledMammal]] ([[User talk:BilledMammal|talk]]) 00:11, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
“If they have to change something, they should change broccoli” … Harrumph! [[User:Blueboar|Blueboar]] ([[User talk:Blueboar|talk]]) 22:02, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

:[[User:Blueboar|Blueboar]], We love to diss the WMF, but we should also look at how suck we are. We imposed a double standard. [[User:CactiStaccingCrane|CactiStaccingCrane]] ([[User talk:CactiStaccingCrane|talk]]) 13:15, 13 August 2022 (UTC)