Editing Project:Village pump (proposals) (section)

== RfC: Should we use the longstanding external links icon or the new one? ==
{{tracked|T261391}}
<!-- [[User:DoNotArchiveUntil]] 05:01, 2 September 2022 (UTC) -->{{User:ClueBot III/DoNotArchiveUntil|1662094885}}
{{rfc|prop|tech|rfcid=5A7326E}}
[[File:MediaWiki external link icon.svg|thumb|old icon]]
[[File:OOjs UI icon external-link-ltr-progressive.svg|thumb|new icon]]
[[File:OOjs UI icon external-link-ltr-progressive low-density.png|thumb|How the new icon appears in Chrome on a 1920x1080 display in Windows 10]]


Recently, a [https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T261391 new icon] has been rolled out and implemented for external links. Should we use the longstanding icon or keep the new one? — [[User:Mhawk10|Ⓜ️hawk10]] ([[User talk:Mhawk10|talk]]) 04:26, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

=== Discussion: Should we use the longstanding external links icon or the new one?===
*'''Use the longstanding icon'''. The old icon was functioning quite fine, no editors on EnWiki seemed to complain about it, though the Wikimedia foundation decided to make changes to the current Vector skin that has used the longstanding external links icon. The new icon, frankly, is too thin to properly render on my monitor and (per comments on phabricator) it appears to be this way on low-density screens more generally. While some may be ok using the new icon before it is fully finished, I personally am frankly disappointed that the way that this icon renders on low-density screens was not given due consideration before its implementation. The longstanding icon should be used until the glaring issues with how the new icon renders on different screens are resolved. — [[User:Mhawk10|Ⓜ️hawk10]] ([[User talk:Mhawk10|talk]]) 04:26, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
* This is clearly premature. --[[User:Izno|Izno]] ([[User talk:Izno|talk]]) 04:37, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
*:I disagree. If anything was premature, it was pushing the icon onto EnWiki without (a) local communication that this was going to happen and (b) testing to make sure that the icon would appear well on low-density screens. — [[User:Mhawk10|Ⓜ️hawk10]] ([[User talk:Mhawk10|talk]]) 04:39, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
*::I disagree, no one is asking you about the 300 changes per week being deployed and you should be glad, you don't have enough waking hours to read them. Be bold and revert is a much better strategy. —[[User:TheDJ|Th<span style="color: green">e</span>DJ]] ([[User talk:TheDJ|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/TheDJ|contribs]]) 14:34, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
*::Per TheDJ. In addition, the change itself has already been reverted in the source. See [[:phab:T261391#8112692]]. [[User:Izno|Izno]] ([[User talk:Izno|talk]]) 15:24, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
*:::Hi @[[User:Mhawk10|Mhawk10]] and all, <br />Volker E. here, I'm Design Lead at the Wikimedia Foundation Product Design team and this change implemented by myself is part of a multi-year user-interface standardization approach. In short the icon collection design and agreed upon by the Design team follows [https://design.wikimedia.org/style-guide/visual-style_icons.html generalized guidelines]
*:::<br />
*:::First things first, as @[[User:Izno|Izno]] already shared, the proposed icon change has already been reverted by us. The rollout featured two problems that we haven't fully anticipated. This will not go into production as is. For completion, visit also the [[phab:T261391|corresponding Phabricator task]].
*:::Second, we have been working and implementing a unified icon set with various quality characteristics for several years now. Among the characteristics are reduction to the essential form and making the icons as universally recognizable as possible. Keep in mind, that given the small icon size, the lesser the details, the better they are recognized by the users. Other high visibility icons, which have changed during that time were 'search', 'user avatar', 'watchlist', 'edit' (pencil) or the 'language' icon. Also Wikipedia's mobile frontend/Minerva Neue skin features the proposed new icon for over a year already. Users switching from mobile to desktop should find the same icons for the same thing.
*:::Third, the current (old) icon features long-standing technical issues. It's not sizing up when users increase text zoom (a common accessibility feature in use) in their browser preferences and doesn't hold up to other quality characteristics above, like the most simple form. <br />
*:::Therefore we're aiming at amending the icon patch once more and at reintroducing it with better targeting all the special cases undiscovered before. Also with more testing time upfront. It should then work well for lo-dpi and hi-dpi (“retina display”) environments and without technical issues that were caused by having it featured in a bigger font-size in running text and smaller one in References.
*:::– Regards, [[User:Volker E. (WMF)|Volker E. (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Volker E. (WMF)|talk]]) 13:40, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
*'''[[WP:BIKESHED]]''' If you prefer the 'old one' once the 'new one' is rolled out, you can always customize it in your on skin. &#32;<span style="font-variant:small-caps; whitespace:nowrap;">[[User:Headbomb|Headbomb]] {[[User talk:Headbomb|t]] · [[Special:Contributions/Headbomb|c]] · [[WP:PHYS|p]] · [[WP:WBOOKS|b]]}</span> 04:44, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
*:This isn't about just me, and I'm aware of how to do customizations. The issue is that affects ''readers'' who have low-density screens by making the rendering sloppy. — [[User:Mhawk10|Ⓜ️hawk10]] ([[User talk:Mhawk10|talk]]) 05:19, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
*:Bikeshedding is when you get caught up discussing the color of the bikeshed instead of the construction of the nuclear power plant. The point isn't that one should never care about the color of a bikeshed. After all, there may be all sorts of aesthetic, logistical, and environmental concerns absolutely worth raising about a bikeshed's color. It just shouldn't become the focus over more important things. So if Mhawk had started this RfC in the middle of a discussion about the external links guideline, then yeah, that'd be bikeshedding. But it's perfectly fine to start a discussion with the specific scope of deciding what the icon should be, just like it's fine for the nuclear power plant to put together a committee with the dedicated purpose of picking a color for the bikeshed. <span class="nowrap"> <span style="font-family:courier">-- [[User:Tamzin|<span style="color:#E6007A;">Tamzin</span>]]</span><sup>[''[[User talk:Tamzin|<span style="color:#E6007A;">cetacean needed</span>]]'']</sup> (she&#124;they&#124;xe)</span> 06:41, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
*'''Use the longstanding icon''', per [[MOS:RESOL]] and Mhawk's comments. [[User:BilledMammal|BilledMammal]] ([[User talk:BilledMammal|talk]]) 05:56, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
*'''Use the longstanding icon''' per the visibility concerns Mhawk raises. A new icon that doesn't render right is about as useful as installing chandeliers in a condemned house.  —[[User:Jéské Couriano|<i style="color: #1E90FF;">Jéské Couriano</i>]] [[User talk:Jéské Couriano|<span style="color: #228B22">v^&lowbar;^v</span>]] <sup><small>[[Special:Contributions/Jéské Couriano|a little blue Bori]]</small></sup> 06:27, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
* Looks like the change was [https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/818147 undone last night] – I assume we will see the old icon again on Thursday — [[User:GhostInTheMachine|GhostInTheMachine]] <sup>[[User talk:GhostInTheMachine|talk to me]]</sup> 09:07, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
* '''Comment''': I like the new icon but to me on my mobile screen using desktop site, it appears as four disconnected straight lines which is rather awkward to see. The old one at least worked fine. <span class="nowrap">&#8212;'''[[User:CX Zoom|CX Zoom]]'''[he/him]</span> <sup class="nowrap">([[User talk:CX Zoom|let's talk]] • {[[Special:Contributions/CX Zoom|C]]•[[User:CX Zoom/X|X]]})</sup> 09:44, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
*:I'm on regular desktop and I see the same: four disconnected lines as the box. Also at high zoom it becomes clear the the diagonal arrow looks terrible and it's got obvious issues. So the "new image" shown for this RfC doesn't match the actual image being used for the external links. [[User:Jason Quinn|Jason Quinn]] ([[User talk:Jason Quinn|talk]]) 16:27, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
* Given that the change has been reverted for now this RfC should be closed. [[User:Samwalton9|'''S'''am '''W'''alton]] ([[User talk:Samwalton9|talk]]) 11:19, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
*'''The old icon looks like ass'''. I mean, I kind of grew attached to it over the years, but let's be honest, it was very much a product of its time. It doesn't make sense. [https://web.archive.org/web/20211207154839im_/https://en.wikipedia.org/w/resources/src/mediawiki.skinning/images/external-ltr.svg?59558 Look at it for a minute]. There is this big, open arrow, and a random diagonal line in the middle of the icon, that's a ''completely different color''. Maybe there are some problems with the new one (it looks fine on my desktop computer but it seems like some people were having issues) -- but come on, there's a lot of room for improvement. '''[[User:JPxG|jp]]'''×'''[[User talk:JPxG|g]]''' 11:53, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
* What do you mean "has been rolled out and implemented"? I still see the "old icon" on EL's. — [[User:Xaosflux|<span style="color:#FF9933; font-weight:bold; font-family:monotype;">xaosflux</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Xaosflux|<span style="color:#009933;">Talk</span>]]</sup> 13:31, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
**I’m still seeing the new icon on desktop while logged out and logged in. What skin are you using? — [[User:Mhawk10|Ⓜ️hawk10]] ([[User talk:Mhawk10|talk]]) 14:10, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
**:Looks like this is skin-specific; only seeing the 'new' one in (minerva, vector, vector-2022). FWIW, I don't really care one way or the other there. — [[User:Xaosflux|<span style="color:#FF9933; font-weight:bold; font-family:monotype;">xaosflux</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Xaosflux|<span style="color:#009933;">Talk</span>]]</sup> 14:37, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
* [[WP:BIKESHED]], no one should care, start writing articles or become a designer ffs —[[User:TheDJ|Th<span style="color: green">e</span>DJ]] ([[User talk:TheDJ|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/TheDJ|contribs]]) 14:02, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
**'''Seconded'''! Another waste of time survey to distract people from meaningful discussions and content creation. '''<span style="font-family:Lucida;">[[User:Aza24|<span style="color:darkred">Aza24</span>]][[User talk:Aza24|<span style="color:#848484"> (talk)</span>]]</span>''' 20:51, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
*:It is good that people care about the site's design and point out problems with updates. Your dismissive attitude is not helpful. —[[User:Kusma|Kusma]] ([[User talk:Kusma|talk]]) 12:13, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
*While I don't like the old icon much and will not shed a tear when it gets replaced by something better, the new icon sort of breaks when I decrease my font size. (Just tested on zhwiki, which has the new xlink icon but the old PDF icon). I am hoping we'll see a third icon that is better than both soon. —[[User:Kusma|Kusma]] ([[User talk:Kusma|talk]]) 16:00, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
*The old icon should be used until resolution issues are fixed. That said, the new one if it renders correctly is much clearer than the old icon. —[[User:Danre98|<span style="color:DarkGreen">Danre98</span>]]<sup>([[User_talk:Danre98|<span style="color:Teal">talk</span>]]^[[Special:Contributions/Danre98|<span style="color:purple">contribs</span>]])</sup> 16:44, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
*'''Reconsider when they want to re-add, if we care''' I'm not quite on the "let the devs do and only revert if needed" side as suggested as pure default, but I don't think this would have been the drastic change that heralded the (formal) dev takeover without prior notice. It's been rightly reverted. Presumably it'll only be re-added when they're fairly confident that it'll serve all the usecases of the current one - i.e. when it's down to being a stylistic choice. As both are perfectly understandable I pray we can skip the pdf slog as I really couldn't care less at that point. Please consider this !vote as a akin to a procedural close !vote, if it matters. [[User:Nosebagbear|Nosebagbear]] ([[User talk:Nosebagbear|talk]]) 21:08, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
*'''Comment'''. What articulatable problem does this icon change solve? Not super clear from the [[phab:T261391|phab thread]]. In my opinion, the icon's reduction in density is a bit jarring. –[[User:Novem Linguae|<span style="color:limegreen">'''Novem Linguae'''</span>]] <small>([[User talk:Novem Linguae|talk]])</small> 03:10, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
* Make the new icon '''thicker''', per others. The new icon is inherently better as it is more modern, easier to see, etc. People who are wanting the old icon back can copy a CSS code from somewhere. A rocky implementation should not kill a good idea. [[User:CactiStaccingCrane|CactiStaccingCrane]] ([[User talk:CactiStaccingCrane|talk]]) 13:16, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
*'''[[WP:BIKESHED]], [[WP:BRD]]''' <span style="font-family:Roboto Mono,Droid Sans Mono,Courier New;font-size:small;">'''[[User:Andrevan|Andrevan]]'''<span style="border-radius: 50%; border: 2px solid #073642;margin-top:-16px">[[User_talk:Andrevan|@]]</span></span> 21:32, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
*'''New logo''' no issues with the new logo, I think there's some [[response bias]] in terms of people actually liking the new logo but not commenting here. This isn't a big deal IMO. Use the new one. [[User:Therapyisgood|Therapyisgood]] ([[User talk:Therapyisgood|talk]]) 01:53, 31 July 2022 (UTC)
*:The problem is not that proposal logo is bad. Infact, I like the modern feel of it. The problem is that what has been proposed, isn't the one being seen by many, if not all, of us. User experience should be the driving force behind change, not making changes for the sake of making changes when there's lots of rather urgent technical issues needing resolve. <span class="nowrap">&#8212;'''[[User:CX Zoom|CX Zoom]]'''[he/him]</span> <sup class="nowrap">([[User talk:CX Zoom|let's talk]] • {[[Special:Contributions/CX Zoom|C]]•[[User:CX Zoom/X|X]]})</sup> 06:41, 31 July 2022 (UTC)
*::This is a terrible, terrible argument. It would be akin to "We should solve all the problems on Earth before exploring space", i.e. we should never explore space because there will always be urgent problems needing to solve. [[User:CactiStaccingCrane|CactiStaccingCrane]] ([[User talk:CactiStaccingCrane|talk]]) 13:27, 13 August 2022 (UTC)
*:For what it's worth, I prefer the new icon.&nbsp;&#8213;&nbsp;<span id="Qwerfjkl:1659290579850:WikipediaBWLCLNVillage_pump_(proposals)" class="BawlCmt">[[User:Qwerfjkl|<span style="background:#1d9ffc; color:white; padding:5px; box-shadow:darkgray 2px 2px 2px;">Qwerfjkl</span>]][[User talk:Qwerfjkl|<span style="background:#79c0f2;color:white; padding:2px; box-shadow:darkgray 2px 2px 2px;">talk</span>]] 18:02, 31 July 2022 (UTC)</span>
*'''Oppose any local solution'''. Just use whatever MediaWiki and Vector developers decide to use. If you want to push a certain option, do it on Phabricator or Meta, not here. [[User:Nardog|Nardog]] ([[User talk:Nardog|talk]]) 02:01, 31 July 2022 (UTC)
*'''Use the longstanding icon'''. In Chrome a 1920x1080 monitor in Windows 10, the new icon looks disjoined and lopsided. --[[User:Ahecht|Ahecht]] ([[User talk:Ahecht|<span style="color:#FFF;background:#04A;display:inline-block;padding:1px;vertical-align:-.3em;font:bold 50%/1 sans-serif;text-align:center">TALK<br />PAGE</span>]]) 18:10, 31 July 2022 (UTC)
:[https://en.wikipedia.org/ link text] ← At least for me, this example is missing the line on the right side, which is even worse. --[[User:Ahecht|Ahecht]] ([[User talk:Ahecht|<span style="color:#FFF;background:#04A;display:inline-block;padding:1px;vertical-align:-.3em;font:bold 50%/1 sans-serif;text-align:center">TALK<br />PAGE</span>]]) 13:35, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
::Patch author here. The (second) implementation has featured a technical issue with the icon canvas, hence the lost side lines. We've reverted the patch, but will provide an updated one which aims to work in your case. Please see also my message to the original thread. – [[User:Volker E. (WMF)|Volker E. (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Volker E. (WMF)|talk]]) 15:01, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
*'''Old one''' - 2560x1440 resolution and the border lines are incredibly thin, almost looking missrendered. [[User:Anarchyte|<span style="color:#202122;font-family:Trebuchet MS">Anarchyte</span>]] ([[User talk:Anarchyte|<span style="color:#202122">talk</span>]]) 08:15, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
*'''New one''' I'd never considered we could change it, but now that I know we can, I agree that the old one looks not great. [[User:CaptainEek|<span style="color:#6a1f7f">'''CaptainEek'''</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:CaptainEek|<span style="font-size:82%"><span style="color:#a479e5">''Edits Ho Cap'n!''</span></span>]]</sup>[[Special:Contributions/CaptainEek|⚓]] 03:28, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
*''' Old one or neutral ''' if it ain't broke, don't fix it. But I'm not terribly fussed if we change it. New icon is not terrible, to be honest. [[User:Oaktree b|Oaktree b]] ([[User talk:Oaktree b|talk]]) 22:57, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
**@[[User:Oaktree b|Oaktree b]], note the comment above, {{Tq|1=the current (old) icon features long-standing technical issues. It's not sizing up when users increase text zoom (a common accessibility feature in use) in their browser preferences and doesn't hold up to other quality characteristics above, like the most simple form.}} &nbsp;&#8213;&nbsp;<span id="Qwerfjkl:1659547469195:WikipediaBWLCLNVillage_pump_(proposals)" class="BawlCmt">[[User:Qwerfjkl|<span style="background:#1d9ffc; color:white; padding:5px; box-shadow:darkgray 2px 2px 2px;">Qwerfjkl</span>]][[User talk:Qwerfjkl|<span style="background:#79c0f2;color:white; padding:2px; box-shadow:darkgray 2px 2px 2px;">talk</span>]] 17:24, 3 August 2022 (UTC)</span>
**:OH, I'm ok with the migration to the new icon in that case. [[User:Oaktree b|Oaktree b]] ([[User talk:Oaktree b|talk]]) 18:10, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
*I was using a low-DPI screen the other day and the new icon looked like crap. I also saw the four disconnected lines, and the arrow looked quite ugly. If there’s an updated version of the new icon that fixes these problems, I’d love to see it, but until then, keep the status quo. Also, please fix the viewport for desktop view on mobile. —[[User:pythoncoder#Miscellaneous|<span style="color:#004080">python</span><span style="color:olive">coder</span>]]&nbsp;([[User talk:pythoncoder|talk]]&nbsp;&#124;&nbsp;[[Special:Contribs/pythoncoder|contribs]]) 00:13, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
*'''Longstanding  one''' The new one's lines are too thin and pixelated for Vector legacy (2010) on Brave browser running on a 1920x1080 monitor. The old one's big and outlined arrow, which makes it easily recognize, definitely makes up for the smaller box in my opinion. ~~&nbsp;[[User:lol1VNIO|lol1<span style="color:#D11D13">VNIO</span>]]&nbsp;(<small>I&nbsp;made&nbsp;a&nbsp;mistake?</small>&nbsp;'''[[User talk:lol1VNIO|<span style="color:#006400">talk&nbsp;to&nbsp;me</span>]]''' • [[Special:contribs/lol1VNIO|contribs]]) 10:08, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
*'''Longstanding one''', or at least make it optional; I personally stand against the simplification of logos, IMO they usually look like crap. [[User:Iazyges|<span style="color:#838996">Iazyges</span>]] [[User talk:Iazyges|<span style="color:#838996">Consermonor</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Iazyges|<span style="color:#838996">Opus meum</span>]] 15:10, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
*'''Make the new icon thicker''' The old icon is unnecessarily complex and does not scale, and the new icon matches the commonly seen "external link" or "opens in new window" icons found in applications or on other websites. The only issue I see is that the stroke weight needs to be thicker to be visible at small sizes. <span style="color: dimgray">&#123;&#123;u&#124;</span>[[User:Bowler the Carmine|Bowler the Carmine]]<span style="color: dimgray">&#125;&#125;</span> (he/him &#124; [[User talk:Bowler the Carmine|talk]]) 21:27, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
*I was not going to comment when I first saw this, but reading the comments above, perhaps that would mean I'm in silent agreement with the change, so here I am, butting in to say I don't ;) I use a low DPI setting on my screen and very much prefer the old icon. The new icon still looks blurry and hard on the eyes at 12px, and I don't see how getting rid of colours is an improvement either. Why not simply make the old icon scalable? <span style="font-family:Garamond,Palatino,serif;font-size:115%;background:-webkit-linear-gradient(red,red,red,blue,blue,blue,blue);-webkit-background-clip:text;-webkit-text-fill-color:transparent">[[User:Daß Wölf|Daß]] [[User talk:Daß Wölf|Wölf]]</span> 18:58, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
* '''Request'''&nbsp;– Can we get a mockup of what the new icon would look line in context? [[User:Graham11|Graham]] ([[User talk:Graham11|talk]]) 05:55, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

===Communication issue===
{{re|Volker E. (WMF)|AHollender (WMF)|Jon (WMF)}} Completely separate from the issue of whether or not the new design is an improvement (which I still need to investigate more before forming an opinion), I think we need to take a bit of space here to diagnose what went wrong with communication between the WMF and the community. This is a major design change (far more impactful than [[Wikipedia:Village_pump_(proposals)/Archive_188#RFC:_New_PDF_icon|the PDF icon change]] for which there was a CENT-listed RfC) that should have been presented to the community rather than rolled out unilaterally. Why didn't that happen? <span style="color:#AAA"><small>&#123;{u&#124;</small><span style="border-radius:9em;padding:0 5px;background:#088">[[User:Sdkb|<span style="color:#FFF">'''Sdkb'''</span>]]</span><small>}&#125;</small></span> <sup>[[User talk:Sdkb|'''talk''']]</sup> 14:37, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

:Because the PDF change took 3 months ? —[[User:TheDJ|Th<span style="color: green">e</span>DJ]] ([[User talk:TheDJ|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/TheDJ|contribs]]) 14:43, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
:The WMF had nothing to do with the pdf change; the icon is a local thing used by [[MediaWiki:Common.css]] circa row 92. In addition, per TheDJ above, there are several changes each week and I don't think enwiki needs consulted about every single one. Devs being bold and others reverting if necessary (as someone has) works just fine. —[[User:Danre98|<span style="color:DarkGreen">Danre98</span>]]<sup>([[User_talk:Danre98|<span style="color:Teal">talk</span>]]^[[Special:Contributions/Danre98|<span style="color:purple">contribs</span>]])</sup> 16:48, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
::I really have to question it as a "major design change". No, New Vector is obviously such, but the external link tag is not. The pdf change took forever because so many proposed changes were un-understandable. [[User:Nosebagbear|Nosebagbear]] ([[User talk:Nosebagbear|talk]]) 21:10, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
:::The external links icon is not a "major design change" but it is extremely visible. Many of the key Wikipedians are some of the most thoughtful, helpful, and capable people on the planet. Maybe it's just me but I think common sense suggests to consult them before making any highly visible global change. [[User:Jason Quinn|Jason Quinn]] ([[User talk:Jason Quinn|talk]]) 02:30, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
::::It makes no economic sense however. —[[User:TheDJ|Th<span style="color: green">e</span>DJ]] ([[User talk:TheDJ|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/TheDJ|contribs]]) 08:59, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
::::And yet, I didn't notice it until I saw this discussion. - [[User talk:Donald Albury|Donald Albury]] 16:19, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
::::I would agree with {{u|Jason Quinn|Jason}} here. I also don't like setting the standard that we make our source code easier to change than [[MediaWiki:Common.css]]. There should be ''some'' sort of community review before highly visible changes go live.<br />FWIW, I say this as ''the'' person who got the PDF icon change rolling (despite not getting my preferred result). {{re|Nosebagbear}} From that perspective, I can say the pdf change took forever simply because the community didn't just want an ''improved'' icon (which my suggestion in comparison to the lousy gif) but a ''better'' icon (the one they ended up going with without the Adobe logo on it -_-). &#8211;<span style="font-family:CG Times, times">[[User:MJL|<span style="color:black">MJL</span>]]&thinsp;[[User talk:MJL|‐'''Talk'''‐]]<sup>[[User:MJL/P|☖]]</sup></span> 18:41, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
:::::"There should be some sort of community review before highly visible changes go live." There is, you can register on gerrit.wikimedia.org and review to your hearts content. You can read all the many dozens of MediaWiki.org pages that summarise some of the changes and you can participate in any Phabricator ticket that has the "design" tag (currently about 1100 open tickets all mostly about 'visible' things). —[[User:TheDJ|Th<span style="color: green">e</span>DJ]] ([[User talk:TheDJ|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/TheDJ|contribs]]) 09:06, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
::::::Please review [[mw:Bug management/Phabricator etiquette]] before posting comments on Phab tickets (it's not difficult, but it's not a Wikipedia talk page).  Also, voting-type behaviors are banned; this is not the place to discuss who supports/opposes something (although links to external discussions are usually welcome). [[User:Whatamidoing (WMF)|Whatamidoing (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Whatamidoing (WMF)|talk]]) 20:08, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
:::::::@[[User:Whatamidoing (WMF)|Whatamidoing (WMF)]]: Thank you for clearing that up for folks. {{(:}} &#8211;<span style="font-family:CG Times, times">[[User:MJL|<span style="color:black">MJL</span>]]&thinsp;[[User talk:MJL|‐'''Talk'''‐]]<sup>[[User:MJL/P|☖]]</sup></span> 21:38, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
:Not every change needs an RfC, but every change that alters how we view or interact with the website should be presented to the community; if there are reasonable objections, we can then open a broader discussion and if necessary an RfC. [[User:BilledMammal|BilledMammal]] ([[User talk:BilledMammal|talk]]) 00:11, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
“If they have to change something, they should change broccoli” … Harrumph! [[User:Blueboar|Blueboar]] ([[User talk:Blueboar|talk]]) 22:02, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

:[[User:Blueboar|Blueboar]], We love to diss the WMF, but we should also look at how suck we are. We imposed a double standard. [[User:CactiStaccingCrane|CactiStaccingCrane]] ([[User talk:CactiStaccingCrane|talk]]) 13:15, 13 August 2022 (UTC)